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Author Topic: Milk Thistle?  (Read 30851 times)

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Offline debham

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  • Posts: 68
Milk Thistle?
« on: May 01, 2015, 10:41:24 am »
I've been reading about people relapsing after treatment. I've been wondering is the relapse due to them not taking care of their liver and since there maybe the presents of the Hep C virus left behind and the weakened state of the liver they relapse. Are they drinking? Are they eating poor? And most important are any of them using supplements like Milk Thistle to keep the liver clean? I'm so worried about the relapse part of taking this drug. I know it's a small percentage of relapse but I  would really like to know why? What caused these poor people to go from undetected to detected.
Diagnosed 2003
VL 300,000
Geno type 1 a
Start TX 4/01/15
VL 2.3 million
Tx Naive
12 wk Tx
Harvoni
Last Ultra Sound
No presents of fibrosis

Offline terih

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  • Posts: 74
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2015, 06:09:54 pm »
Hi Deb, Please don't worry about relapse! I knew when I came forward this was going to cause some worry for everyone. I know it is easy to say don't worry and hard to do..... But please choose positive for your own well being and your health! I'm right here waiting for your good results from this med!

To answer your questions, I've never taken any supplements, haven't touched a drop of alcohol in about 25 years, and as for my diet well it could be a whole lot cleaner! I do eat all natural and organic, but I'm a southern girl and feel most things would some how be better with just a little gravy!  ;)

When I started this med, I knew there was a small chance it wouldn't work for me, but a HUGE chance it would! I would do it all over again tomorrow!

So the odds really are in your favor! Big, big, good odds!!!!!     Please don't forget the big numbers being cured!  Teri
64 yrs. on this fine planet!
diagnosed 1993
Stage 1 cirrhosis
Genotype 1a
12 wks. Harvoni  Relapse late Feb. 2015
Currently treating with Solvaldi/Olysio
The light at the end of the tunnel, is often not a train!

Offline debham

  • Member
  • Posts: 68
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2015, 06:57:02 pm »
Teri, I'm so sorry and very sad to hear about your relapse. I'm in the south too. I eat ok but I'm not an angel. Can you say BBQ? If it means getting threw the eot 12 weeks undetected I'd eat what ever it takes. I'm five weeks into my tx 7 more. I wonder how many people take milk thistle after treatment to help the liver heal and just how helpful it is. I know there's only a small percentage that Harvoni doesn't work on. I pray for a cure for everyone. I'd like to see this disease erased from the planet. Best of luck to you. I'll keep ya posted. I haven't had a blood test since I started my tx. My next appointment with my GI is at week 8. I imagine he will send me for blood work at that time. But maybe not. He may wait until week 12. I have been doing my usual cardio workout three times a week. So hopefully that will help in getting the Harvoni into every nook and cranny of this body. I will keep you in my prayers Teri. I'm so so sorry.  :(  Deb
Diagnosed 2003
VL 300,000
Geno type 1 a
Start TX 4/01/15
VL 2.3 million
Tx Naive
12 wk Tx
Harvoni
Last Ultra Sound
No presents of fibrosis

Offline Lynn K

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2015, 07:21:50 pm »
Hi Deb

Just like when I relapsed after 12 weeks of Solvadi Olysio last year. I was not detected at week 4 and EOT week 12 but relapsed.

I was a good as good can be have no other choice really with having cirrhosis for the last 7 years if I wasn't well behaved I would not be here today.

For patients like myself as a multiple null responder to interferon based tx, with cirrhosis, GT1a, and a Sovaldi Olysio relapser my odds are not as good as yours. We are the most difficult to treat.

I am nervous about if this time with Harvoni for 24 weeks if it will work or not. I am getting a 4 week post treatment viral load done just for that reason. I should know in about 5 weeks if I have finally beaten hep c of if Hep c will beat me.

Good Luck Deb and also Teri I am obviously very anxious to hear what is next for you.

I sure hope not but I may need this information for myself as well.
Genotype 1a
1978 contracted, 1990 Dx
1995 Intron A failed
2001 Interferon Riba null response
2003 Pegintron Riba trial med null response
2008 F4 Cirrhosis Bx
2014 12 week Sov/Oly relapse
10/14 fibroscan 27 PLT 96
2014 24 weeks Harvoni 15 weeks Riba
5/4/15 EOT not detected, ALT 21, AST 20
4 week post not detected, ALT 26, AST 28
12 week post NOT DETECTED (07/27/15)
ALT 29, AST 27 PLT 92
24 week post NOT DETECTED! (10/19/15)
44 weeks (3/11/16)  fibroscan 33, PLT 111, HCV NOT DETECTED!
I AM FREE!

Offline debham

  • Member
  • Posts: 68
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2015, 04:51:47 am »
Lynn,
I sure hope you do well with this treatment. I never went threw the other treatments. I've had Doctors who thought the treatment wouldn't work since I'm genotype 1a and my viral load has not been real high. It's at 2.3 mill. I have no idea when I got this disease I had major surgery in the early nineties it was shortly after that I started feeling crappy. I'll keep you in my prayers. Good luck to you. I'm amazed at how easy this drug is on my system. I sure hope it does it's magic act on me and you and everyone else who's using it. Deb
Diagnosed 2003
VL 300,000
Geno type 1 a
Start TX 4/01/15
VL 2.3 million
Tx Naive
12 wk Tx
Harvoni
Last Ultra Sound
No presents of fibrosis

Offline Lynn K

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2015, 05:36:28 am »
I was getting progressively more and mor scaring with every liver biopsy. So that is why I treated plus just wanted to try to get rid of this thing.

I don't know what my viral loads have been in the past but last year before I started treatment it was 2.0 million and after my relapse it was 2.4million.

My ALT and AST have always been in about the 50 to 60 range. My platelet count has been about 85 for the last several years due to cirrhosis and portal hypertension.
Genotype 1a
1978 contracted, 1990 Dx
1995 Intron A failed
2001 Interferon Riba null response
2003 Pegintron Riba trial med null response
2008 F4 Cirrhosis Bx
2014 12 week Sov/Oly relapse
10/14 fibroscan 27 PLT 96
2014 24 weeks Harvoni 15 weeks Riba
5/4/15 EOT not detected, ALT 21, AST 20
4 week post not detected, ALT 26, AST 28
12 week post NOT DETECTED (07/27/15)
ALT 29, AST 27 PLT 92
24 week post NOT DETECTED! (10/19/15)
44 weeks (3/11/16)  fibroscan 33, PLT 111, HCV NOT DETECTED!
I AM FREE!

Offline Bituman

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  • Posts: 157
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2015, 08:59:05 am »
Terih and Lynn-FWIW the PA I saw yesterday told me very specifically that "everyone" would eventually be cured.  She says there are many new and innovative treatments in trial and being conceptualized.  If one doesn't zap the virus, another will.  Progress in hcv treatment is accelerating. 

Lynn, I continue to admire your fortitude and strength. You are quite a fighter! 

Deb-My hepatologist does not believe in any merits of milk thistle.  I asked him back in 2007.  However, my IM doc takes a little different approach about supplements.  His feeling is that so long as it's safe, give it a try.  Not sure he really believes in supplements either.  I suspect he believes if one thinks a supplement does some good, then it will, i.e., positive thinking.  We had this chat when discussing bone and joint supplements when I developed an arthritic knee. 

Bob

Age = 59, male, infected likely 1975
DX 07/07 GT 1a
Biopsy 2007:  GR 1, stage 0, HAI = 2/18
Since 2007:  1.48 MM < VL < 11 MM, avg = 5.64 MM
IL28B=CT
1/26/15, AST=43, ALT=55, VL=3.59 MM
2/5 Start Harvoni 12 weeks; Treat naive
2/20 AST=29, ALT=24, VL=59
3/6 AST=29, ALT=25, VL<15
3/19 AST=24, ALT=22, VL=undet
4/3 AST=29, ALT=25, VL=undet
4/30 EOT, AST=22, ALT=20, VL=undet
5/29 EOT+4, AST=20, ALT=19, VL=undet SVR
7/24 EOT+12, AST=23, ALT=18, VL=undet SVR
10/16 EOT+24, AST=22, ALT=17, VL=undet SVR

Offline debham

  • Member
  • Posts: 68
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2015, 08:31:00 am »
Bob,
Thanks for your input. I have been wondering about this for a long time. I've never tried it. I've never been much of a pill taker as a matter of fact up until this year all was good until I developed hypertension and was put on a diuretic to ease that. Now Harvoni so I've gotten use to taking pills and thought maybe if there was some truth in Milk thistle I'd switch over to that once I've finished up my Harvoni. Perhaps I'll get replies from others whom have used it. Deb
Diagnosed 2003
VL 300,000
Geno type 1 a
Start TX 4/01/15
VL 2.3 million
Tx Naive
12 wk Tx
Harvoni
Last Ultra Sound
No presents of fibrosis

Offline terih

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  • Posts: 74
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2015, 12:11:25 pm »
Hi Deb, I've read about lots of people that swear by Milk Thistle and quite a few of them seemed to have a low viral load, but every Doc I've mentioned it to, has rolled their eyes......  ::) I'm going to my new Doc on Tues. (man that appointment snuck up on me quick!) and I'll ask them about liver support supplements!
I think I may have stumbled into great situation, one of the Docs there is participating in the one pill cure trials! So I'll let you know what they say! Cross your fingers for me that they are more personable than Dr. Putz was.......  ;D
64 yrs. on this fine planet!
diagnosed 1993
Stage 1 cirrhosis
Genotype 1a
12 wks. Harvoni  Relapse late Feb. 2015
Currently treating with Solvaldi/Olysio
The light at the end of the tunnel, is often not a train!

Offline Lynn K

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  • Posts: 4,544
  • Get tested, get treated, get cured, fight Hep c!
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2015, 04:05:26 pm »
I read some say well I took milk thistle a shad no symptoms and had low viral load and low liver enzymes.

I don't take milk thistle had no symptoms low viral load and low liver enzymes. I did take it for a while from time to time but yet still developed cirrhosis with a low viral load low liver enzymes and no symptoms.

Not a believer. I have read trial results for milk thistle no evidence to support effectiveness. Just placebo effect for desperate people.
Genotype 1a
1978 contracted, 1990 Dx
1995 Intron A failed
2001 Interferon Riba null response
2003 Pegintron Riba trial med null response
2008 F4 Cirrhosis Bx
2014 12 week Sov/Oly relapse
10/14 fibroscan 27 PLT 96
2014 24 weeks Harvoni 15 weeks Riba
5/4/15 EOT not detected, ALT 21, AST 20
4 week post not detected, ALT 26, AST 28
12 week post NOT DETECTED (07/27/15)
ALT 29, AST 27 PLT 92
24 week post NOT DETECTED! (10/19/15)
44 weeks (3/11/16)  fibroscan 33, PLT 111, HCV NOT DETECTED!
I AM FREE!

Offline Bituman

  • Member
  • Posts: 157
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2015, 04:32:07 pm »
Cross your fingers for me that they are more personable than Dr. Putz was.......  ;D

That one cracked me up Terih!  I want to say how much I admire your positive attitude in the face of a relapse. 

Wouldn't that be great to be part of a trial.  Hoping for the best for you. 

Bob
Age = 59, male, infected likely 1975
DX 07/07 GT 1a
Biopsy 2007:  GR 1, stage 0, HAI = 2/18
Since 2007:  1.48 MM < VL < 11 MM, avg = 5.64 MM
IL28B=CT
1/26/15, AST=43, ALT=55, VL=3.59 MM
2/5 Start Harvoni 12 weeks; Treat naive
2/20 AST=29, ALT=24, VL=59
3/6 AST=29, ALT=25, VL<15
3/19 AST=24, ALT=22, VL=undet
4/3 AST=29, ALT=25, VL=undet
4/30 EOT, AST=22, ALT=20, VL=undet
5/29 EOT+4, AST=20, ALT=19, VL=undet SVR
7/24 EOT+12, AST=23, ALT=18, VL=undet SVR
10/16 EOT+24, AST=22, ALT=17, VL=undet SVR

Offline opaleye

  • Member
  • Posts: 67
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2015, 04:35:01 pm »
Hi Deb!

I started taking milk thistle since being diagnosed with HCV in 1998. My doctor is fine with me taking it, or at least he doesn't think it will do any harm. However even though he okayed it for use with Harvoni, I stopped taking it during treatment. Now that I'm done with Harvoni I'm back on it.

Recently I've read studies that say milk thistle is not effective for HVC (https://nccih.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/071812) and others that say a medicine derived from milk thistle "lowered hepatitis C virus (HCV) levels in patients awaiting liver transplantation" (http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/hepatitis-c/hepatitis-c-topics/hcv-treatment/3986-milk-thistle-drug-may-help-control-hcv-replication-after-liver-transplant)

I am an academic librarian and fully respect research results, but our bodies are unique and those studies cannot include every example of human beings. I consider myself my own test subject, and when on milk thistle I feel less pressure on my right side under my ribs. It could be just coincidence or the placebo effect, but it's worth it to me to keep taking it. What's important is to get a quality product that isn't just powered leaves but has standardized silybin, the herb's active ingredient.

Hope this helps!

~Opaleye
1982 Dx Non-A Non-B infection
1998 Dx HVC genotype 1a; VL < 1 Million; Liver Biopsy F0 A0
2006 Liver Biopsy F1 A1
2015 Harvoni Tx 8 wks: 15 wks post-EOT: VL ~670,000 -- Relapsed
2018 Mavyret Tx 16 wks: VL 90 at 12 wks, dr stopped Tx per VL detected, severe fatigue, dizziness (a month later got pacemaker for bradycardia)
2021 Liver biopsy: No fibrosis
2023-12-14 Started Vosevi: Hemocrit 48.8, platlets 133, ALP 141, AST 91, ALT 75, VL 1824750
2024-03-14 EOT Not Detected!

Offline debham

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  • Posts: 68
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2015, 06:02:39 pm »
Thanks for your input. I will consider taking it once I'm finished with my tx. I have a rescue parrot who had really poor eating habits when I first got her, the vet I took her to told me to try milk thistle drops in her water for her liver. I've gotten her on a better diet and she's healthy now. At that time I didn't know I had Hep. From what I have read it's use is for cleaning the liver. Won't hurt to try it.
Diagnosed 2003
VL 300,000
Geno type 1 a
Start TX 4/01/15
VL 2.3 million
Tx Naive
12 wk Tx
Harvoni
Last Ultra Sound
No presents of fibrosis

Offline debham

  • Member
  • Posts: 68
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2015, 06:07:28 pm »
Teri
Good Luck with your new DR. I hope you are able to get this right meds and be cured.
I find my GI Dr has a pretty dry personality to. Actually every GI I've ever seen lacks in personality.  :D
Diagnosed 2003
VL 300,000
Geno type 1 a
Start TX 4/01/15
VL 2.3 million
Tx Naive
12 wk Tx
Harvoni
Last Ultra Sound
No presents of fibrosis

Offline dragonslayer

  • Member
  • Posts: 873
Paul

DX 2008
Started Harvoni 11/26/14 for 8 wks
Completed 8 wks Harvoni 01/20/15
EOT RNA Quant result:  Detected 29
7.5 wk post tx: Detected < LLOQ(12)
11 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR12
24 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR24; AST 26; ALT 22; ALP 73
48 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR48; AST 18; ALT 18; ALP 70
GT 1a
vl 2.4mil
2008 bpx: Stage&Grade 0
2013 bpx: Stage&Grade: 0-1
IL28B: TT
likely infected early '70s

Offline Lynn K

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  • Member
  • Posts: 4,544
  • Get tested, get treated, get cured, fight Hep c!
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2015, 11:23:32 pm »
First article was written by 2nd Department of Medicine, Semmelweis University, Budapest, Hungary and is from January 2012 and has no comments to it.

Smart Publications is an alternatives health site. Much like an online health food store selling books. One of their notable authors is Dr. Jonathan V. Wright. I am from WA state and know of him here is some info for those who don't know him

"In 2013, the Washington Medical Quality Assurance Commission concluded that Wright had engaged in unprofessional conduct by employing an unlicensed physician (Roby Mitchell), whose Texas license had been revoked) in his clinic and had failed to cooperate with the Commission's investigation of his wrongdoing. The Commission suspended Wright's license for 90 days, to be followed by 30 months of probation, and ordered him to pay a $7,500 fine"

All I am sure of re milk thistle is it will not harm the patient except in the wallet. I have seen not clinical trials showing efficacy. I have seen clinical trials showing no effect.

If you want to try milk thistle go ahead but I feel it is a waste of money. Just my opinion.
Genotype 1a
1978 contracted, 1990 Dx
1995 Intron A failed
2001 Interferon Riba null response
2003 Pegintron Riba trial med null response
2008 F4 Cirrhosis Bx
2014 12 week Sov/Oly relapse
10/14 fibroscan 27 PLT 96
2014 24 weeks Harvoni 15 weeks Riba
5/4/15 EOT not detected, ALT 21, AST 20
4 week post not detected, ALT 26, AST 28
12 week post NOT DETECTED (07/27/15)
ALT 29, AST 27 PLT 92
24 week post NOT DETECTED! (10/19/15)
44 weeks (3/11/16)  fibroscan 33, PLT 111, HCV NOT DETECTED!
I AM FREE!

Offline dragonslayer

  • Member
  • Posts: 873
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2015, 05:47:25 pm »
Lynn, thanks for the further scrutiny.. Do you discount the findings in the first article because its from Hungary?  I find its hard to find recent scientific testing of Silymarin here in the USA.. So, then, the quantity used, and the absorbability of the form taken cannot be really evaluated. I thought I had seen something on the Natural Wellness site in conjunction with their Maximum Milk Thistle regarding test results of this particular form and strength, but Im at a loss to find it now. Ill keep looking..
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 06:18:06 pm by dragonslayer »
Paul

DX 2008
Started Harvoni 11/26/14 for 8 wks
Completed 8 wks Harvoni 01/20/15
EOT RNA Quant result:  Detected 29
7.5 wk post tx: Detected < LLOQ(12)
11 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR12
24 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR24; AST 26; ALT 22; ALP 73
48 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR48; AST 18; ALT 18; ALP 70
GT 1a
vl 2.4mil
2008 bpx: Stage&Grade 0
2013 bpx: Stage&Grade: 0-1
IL28B: TT
likely infected early '70s

Offline Lynn K

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  • Get tested, get treated, get cured, fight Hep c!
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2015, 06:21:21 pm »
That would be great Paul. As much of a total skeptic as I am I may think about milk thistle after my system settles down from treatment just on the off chance it could do anything.

Or I don't believe in ghosts but would still freak out in an scary old abandoned house as good as anyone ya know what I mean?
Genotype 1a
1978 contracted, 1990 Dx
1995 Intron A failed
2001 Interferon Riba null response
2003 Pegintron Riba trial med null response
2008 F4 Cirrhosis Bx
2014 12 week Sov/Oly relapse
10/14 fibroscan 27 PLT 96
2014 24 weeks Harvoni 15 weeks Riba
5/4/15 EOT not detected, ALT 21, AST 20
4 week post not detected, ALT 26, AST 28
12 week post NOT DETECTED (07/27/15)
ALT 29, AST 27 PLT 92
24 week post NOT DETECTED! (10/19/15)
44 weeks (3/11/16)  fibroscan 33, PLT 111, HCV NOT DETECTED!
I AM FREE!

Offline opaleye

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  • Posts: 67
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2015, 08:09:39 pm »
@Lynn- I hear what you are saying about not believing in ghosts  ;)  I call myself an open-minded skeptic -- Show me, let me experience it myself.

Here is the webpage for research studies on the Natural Wellness website: http://www.liversupport.com/clinical-studies/.

Granted this list is found on the website of a company who wants to sell you a product, and I'm not familiar with the Italian journals, but some of the articles are cited in PubMed (which academic libraries recognize as a reputable source) and at the bottom of the list is an article from the British "Journal of Viral Hepatitis," published by Wiley (also recognized as a reputable source).

That article, "Silymarin treatment of viral hepatitis: a systematic review," states that "Silymarin treatment resulted in a decrease in serum transaminases compared with baseline in four studies, and compared with placebo in only one study. There is no evidence that silymarin affects viral load or improves liver histology in hepatitis B or C. " Interesting that Natural Wellness's registered brand of Silymarin didn't do so well in these studies. Full disclosure. Maximum Milk Thistle is the brand I have been taking since 1998. Perhaps I should be looking for a different brand!

Hope this helps  :)

~Opaleye
1982 Dx Non-A Non-B infection
1998 Dx HVC genotype 1a; VL < 1 Million; Liver Biopsy F0 A0
2006 Liver Biopsy F1 A1
2015 Harvoni Tx 8 wks: 15 wks post-EOT: VL ~670,000 -- Relapsed
2018 Mavyret Tx 16 wks: VL 90 at 12 wks, dr stopped Tx per VL detected, severe fatigue, dizziness (a month later got pacemaker for bradycardia)
2021 Liver biopsy: No fibrosis
2023-12-14 Started Vosevi: Hemocrit 48.8, platlets 133, ALP 141, AST 91, ALT 75, VL 1824750
2024-03-14 EOT Not Detected!

Offline dragonslayer

  • Member
  • Posts: 873
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2015, 08:19:03 pm »
Opal, Yup, thats the page I was looking for.. Thanks for the link!  Ive also been taking Maximum Milk Thistle since I was diagnosed in '08.   Can you tell me, what is ' Natural Wellness's registered brand of Silymarin '  that you found referenced in that article?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 08:30:37 pm by dragonslayer »
Paul

DX 2008
Started Harvoni 11/26/14 for 8 wks
Completed 8 wks Harvoni 01/20/15
EOT RNA Quant result:  Detected 29
7.5 wk post tx: Detected < LLOQ(12)
11 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR12
24 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR24; AST 26; ALT 22; ALP 73
48 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR48; AST 18; ALT 18; ALP 70
GT 1a
vl 2.4mil
2008 bpx: Stage&Grade 0
2013 bpx: Stage&Grade: 0-1
IL28B: TT
likely infected early '70s

Offline Lynn K

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  • Get tested, get treated, get cured, fight Hep c!
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2015, 08:35:38 pm »
Hi Opal

So from the link you quoted "There is no evidence that silymarin affects viral load or improves liver histology in hepatitis B or C. "

So still in the doubting Thomas camp
Genotype 1a
1978 contracted, 1990 Dx
1995 Intron A failed
2001 Interferon Riba null response
2003 Pegintron Riba trial med null response
2008 F4 Cirrhosis Bx
2014 12 week Sov/Oly relapse
10/14 fibroscan 27 PLT 96
2014 24 weeks Harvoni 15 weeks Riba
5/4/15 EOT not detected, ALT 21, AST 20
4 week post not detected, ALT 26, AST 28
12 week post NOT DETECTED (07/27/15)
ALT 29, AST 27 PLT 92
24 week post NOT DETECTED! (10/19/15)
44 weeks (3/11/16)  fibroscan 33, PLT 111, HCV NOT DETECTED!
I AM FREE!

Offline terih

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  • Posts: 74
Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2015, 06:54:28 pm »
Hi Deb, went to see the new Doc today, who I must say is awesome! He is an official hepatologist (sp?) and is all about doing whatever it takes to rid people of this horrid disease, hasn't seen much results from Milk Thistle. So there's that opinion.

@Bituman, thanks for your kind words, but I'm not nearly as brave as people like you or Lynn! I've thought a lot about it and think the relapse would have hit me much harder, if I had gone through the horrible treatments and then relapsed! Not that I don't worry, but good things are on the horizon, even for relapses like me!

@Lynn, well my new Doc is a peach!!! Can I say that about a guy?  ;D  I found out today this group of Docs were testing Harvoni 2 plus years ago! He said they have many trials going on right now for new drugs to combine with Sofobuvir, the good drug part of Harvoni! They are trialing much better drugs than Ledpipasvir for combining! Sofobuvir does not make mutant virus, so can be used again! He also said the next Abbvie drug is gonna be great! Lots of hope ahead!

As for my relapse, he just doesn't think I had a long enough treatment! He thinks it's going to come out that one size does not fit all. I'm a plump lady with a fatty liver and it should factor into treatment length! In the beginning of August, they are doing a DAA failure study and I'm in!!!! So good news!!!!
64 yrs. on this fine planet!
diagnosed 1993
Stage 1 cirrhosis
Genotype 1a
12 wks. Harvoni  Relapse late Feb. 2015
Currently treating with Solvaldi/Olysio
The light at the end of the tunnel, is often not a train!

Offline Lynn K

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2015, 11:04:48 pm »
Great news terih!

Sounds like you have a great doctor.

Yeah that is probably why I relapsed last year on Sov/Oly also. I only treated for 12 weeks ended in June 2014. Then in November they changed the recommendation for people with cirrhosis to 24 weeks.

I guess what made the relapse earier emotionally for me was I knew Harvoni was  coming out soon and was better than Sov/Oly but was hoping I would not need to try Harvoni as the stats with S/O for me were about 85% but oh well wasn't to be.

More worried this time because if 24 weeks doesn't work then what? I just hope I never have to find out.

I could stand to lose a few pounds my BMI is 28.4 so high end of overweight nearing 30.0 obese. So that probably didn't help much either.
Genotype 1a
1978 contracted, 1990 Dx
1995 Intron A failed
2001 Interferon Riba null response
2003 Pegintron Riba trial med null response
2008 F4 Cirrhosis Bx
2014 12 week Sov/Oly relapse
10/14 fibroscan 27 PLT 96
2014 24 weeks Harvoni 15 weeks Riba
5/4/15 EOT not detected, ALT 21, AST 20
4 week post not detected, ALT 26, AST 28
12 week post NOT DETECTED (07/27/15)
ALT 29, AST 27 PLT 92
24 week post NOT DETECTED! (10/19/15)
44 weeks (3/11/16)  fibroscan 33, PLT 111, HCV NOT DETECTED!
I AM FREE!

Offline opaleye

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 03:52:32 am »
Opal, Yup, thats the page I was looking for.. Thanks for the link!  Ive also been taking Maximum Milk Thistle since I was diagnosed in '08.   Can you tell me, what is ' Natural Wellness's registered brand of Silymarin '  that you found referenced in that article?

Thanks.
dragonslayer

Actually, I realized later that night when I took my milk thistle, that MMT is not Silymarin[R] but Silybin Phytosome[R]. I don't see Silybin Phytosome[R] mentioned in the article, but the generic silybin is.

Sorry for the confusion!

~Opaleye
1982 Dx Non-A Non-B infection
1998 Dx HVC genotype 1a; VL < 1 Million; Liver Biopsy F0 A0
2006 Liver Biopsy F1 A1
2015 Harvoni Tx 8 wks: 15 wks post-EOT: VL ~670,000 -- Relapsed
2018 Mavyret Tx 16 wks: VL 90 at 12 wks, dr stopped Tx per VL detected, severe fatigue, dizziness (a month later got pacemaker for bradycardia)
2021 Liver biopsy: No fibrosis
2023-12-14 Started Vosevi: Hemocrit 48.8, platlets 133, ALP 141, AST 91, ALT 75, VL 1824750
2024-03-14 EOT Not Detected!

Offline opaleye

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2015, 04:20:37 am »
Hi Opal

So from the link you quoted "There is no evidence that silymarin affects viral load or improves liver histology in hepatitis B or C. "

So still in the doubting Thomas camp

Yes, that article reports that some studies found silymarin did not affect viral load or histology, but did improve AST, ALT, GGT, and total bilirubin results. I wasn't looking for milk thistle to eradicate the virus, I was just hoping for a little repair from the damage. This article is 10 years old, and one of the main points I came away with was there hadn't been sufficient studies.

The more recent (2013) "Milk Thistle Drug May Help Control HCV Replication after Liver Transplant" reports on studies with another active compound in milk thistle, silibinin. The results of those studies do indicate that viral loads are affected:

  • Among participants who received treatment for more than 14 days pre-transplant, HCV viral load decreased significantly more in the silibinin group compared with the placebo group.
  • Median drops in HCV RNA were -2.3 log with silibinin vs -0.3 with placebo.
  • During the post-transplant period, viral load levels were consistently and significantly lower in the silibinin group.
  • 2 patients receiving silibinin saw their viral load fall below the limit of quantification and 2 fell below the limit of detection.
  • Short-term peri-transplant treatment with silibinin was generally safe and well-tolerated.

http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/hepatitis-c/hepatitis-c-topics/hcv-treatment/3986-milk-thistle-drug-may-help-control-hcv-replication-after-liver-transplant

Thanks to Harvoni I won't have to worry about where to find silibinin (I am believing I am cured until they tell me otherwise) but I am open to anything that might to help my liver heal from decades' worth of onslaught from HVC. If nothing else, it appears to be another antioxidant to add to the list.

Effect of the flavanolignans of Silybum marianum L. on lipid peroxidation in rat liver microsomes and freshly isolated hepatocytes. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635893?dopt=Abstract

~Opaleye
1982 Dx Non-A Non-B infection
1998 Dx HVC genotype 1a; VL < 1 Million; Liver Biopsy F0 A0
2006 Liver Biopsy F1 A1
2015 Harvoni Tx 8 wks: 15 wks post-EOT: VL ~670,000 -- Relapsed
2018 Mavyret Tx 16 wks: VL 90 at 12 wks, dr stopped Tx per VL detected, severe fatigue, dizziness (a month later got pacemaker for bradycardia)
2021 Liver biopsy: No fibrosis
2023-12-14 Started Vosevi: Hemocrit 48.8, platlets 133, ALP 141, AST 91, ALT 75, VL 1824750
2024-03-14 EOT Not Detected!

Offline Lynn K

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2015, 04:48:20 am »
Interesting article wonder how many subjects?

Also I guess the med was Intravenous silibinin so a bit more difficult to administer than interferon sub Q

But interesting none the less thanks
Genotype 1a
1978 contracted, 1990 Dx
1995 Intron A failed
2001 Interferon Riba null response
2003 Pegintron Riba trial med null response
2008 F4 Cirrhosis Bx
2014 12 week Sov/Oly relapse
10/14 fibroscan 27 PLT 96
2014 24 weeks Harvoni 15 weeks Riba
5/4/15 EOT not detected, ALT 21, AST 20
4 week post not detected, ALT 26, AST 28
12 week post NOT DETECTED (07/27/15)
ALT 29, AST 27 PLT 92
24 week post NOT DETECTED! (10/19/15)
44 weeks (3/11/16)  fibroscan 33, PLT 111, HCV NOT DETECTED!
I AM FREE!

Offline terih

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2015, 10:29:14 am »
Lynn, I'm really hoping you reach SVR with Harvoni too!!!! And FYI my BMI is higher than that, so don't worry on that count! I just wanted to let you know there are more good things on the horizon, since you like to be well versed on things! Also thanks to reading your posts, I knew lots of things to ask the new Doc about, so thank you very much!
64 yrs. on this fine planet!
diagnosed 1993
Stage 1 cirrhosis
Genotype 1a
12 wks. Harvoni  Relapse late Feb. 2015
Currently treating with Solvaldi/Olysio
The light at the end of the tunnel, is often not a train!

Offline debham

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2015, 01:57:36 pm »
Teri,
 Congrats I'm so glad they have accepted you. I'm in Katy TX not to far from SA. If all fails I know there's a place to go that's close. Thanks for keeping us posted. Good Luck!!!!!!
P.S. Thanks for checking with the specialist about the milk thistle.
Deb
Diagnosed 2003
VL 300,000
Geno type 1 a
Start TX 4/01/15
VL 2.3 million
Tx Naive
12 wk Tx
Harvoni
Last Ultra Sound
No presents of fibrosis

Offline debham

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2015, 01:59:14 pm »
I know they will have a solution some way some how for everyone.
Deb
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 02:03:00 pm by debham »
Diagnosed 2003
VL 300,000
Geno type 1 a
Start TX 4/01/15
VL 2.3 million
Tx Naive
12 wk Tx
Harvoni
Last Ultra Sound
No presents of fibrosis

Offline terih

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2015, 04:43:55 pm »
Katy is not that far at all and I hope you never have to meet these Docs! And yes, I think solutions are right around the corner for everyone!  :)

And I must say, that is one huge mall y'all have! It took me 5 hours to walk all the way around it!
64 yrs. on this fine planet!
diagnosed 1993
Stage 1 cirrhosis
Genotype 1a
12 wks. Harvoni  Relapse late Feb. 2015
Currently treating with Solvaldi/Olysio
The light at the end of the tunnel, is often not a train!

Offline debham

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2015, 07:51:00 pm »
Next time you come this way let me know. I'll walk that Mall with you. I'm on the north side of I 10. About two miles away from Katy Mills. I've always enjoyed the river walk there in SA we went for the Christmas lights a couple years ago.
Diagnosed 2003
VL 300,000
Geno type 1 a
Start TX 4/01/15
VL 2.3 million
Tx Naive
12 wk Tx
Harvoni
Last Ultra Sound
No presents of fibrosis

Offline dearprudence

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2015, 02:19:15 pm »
I have taken Milk Thistle  sometimes mixed with Dandelion Root since being diagnosed with Hep C about 20 years ago. Diagnosis in 1970's was nonA/nonB. With same doc for last 16 years waiting for something without interferon. taking Vpak & Riba now. (4 weeks down and 8 to go) He was not a believer in Milk Thistle, but my enzymes stayed comparitively low, no cirrhosis, comparitively low VL, and after 40+ years I have just moved to stage 1-2. He always told me to stay with the Milk Thistle as there was no harm.
However, he said not to take it during treatment and if I'm cured I don't need to take it anymore.
Just putting my experiences out there. Good luck to all!

Offline dearprudence

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2015, 02:22:22 pm »
Also been told by NP in dr.'s office to eat at least 3 egg whites a week - helps to rebuild healthy tissue. Does it work? I don't know, but it's worth a try.

Offline KimInTheForest

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2015, 03:50:13 pm »
Also been told by NP in dr.'s office to eat at least 3 egg whites a week - helps to rebuild healthy tissue. Does it work? I don't know, but it's worth a try.

What form do you eat them in Prudence? And would whole eggs be just as good? Give us the benefit of the whites, plus the extra nutritional stuff in yolk?

kim
Kim Goldberg (Nanaimo, BC)
1970s: Contracted HCV (genotype 3a)
2015: Cured with Harvoni + ribavirin (12 weeks)
MY STORY: https://pigsquash.wordpress.com/2016/01/28/undetectable-my-hep-c-story/

Offline dearprudence

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2015, 01:17:23 pm »
Hi Kim,
I eat about 3 whole eggs a week - scrambled, over easy and hard boiled. The whites have fewer calories and no cholesterol as well as less iron, less fat, and about 11 grams of proten (16 in yolks).
NP said whites, due to the fact that the whites are the albumin that is broken down in the digestive system into the amino acids that help the body repair and replace tissue. If I eat more than 3 eggs I go for the hard boiled egg whites.
You can research eggs and egg albumin and decide whether or not to eat the whole egg or just the whites.
Whole eggs still give the benefits of egg albumin.

Prdence

Offline victoria48

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2015, 03:42:01 am »
Hello  All:  Nothing like good southern food but "SALT" and "beef" wear the liver down.
The salt I understand can cause swelling etc, the beef puts a strain on the liver because of the protein.

I have heard over and over Milk Thistle is very supportive of the liver but would not take it while on treatment.  I am at the end of 24 weeks of Solvaldi and Riba and I wonder about what you are all relating.    My goal is to lose weight and eat healthy and pray for no relapse because I would rather die than go back on Ribavirin!

I am not a doctor but the above is what my doctor related and what I have read and researched.

Offline S.Belle

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2015, 05:56:34 pm »
I took milk thistle for a little over a year and my Fibrsure scan went from F1 to F3. My GI had me stop taking it, as it was not working. Also had me stop all supplements a month before starting Harvoni. Only take blood pressure and thyroid meds, a multivitamin and aspirin if needed.
Genotype 1
Infected in early 1990's Diagnosed in 2008
No previous treatment
Fibrosure score F3   Viral Load 94,000
ALT 117  AST 115
Started Harvoni on July 14, 2015



Two weeks into Harvoni blood test results:
ALT 13  AST 21
Viral Load  =  UNDETECTED  !!!


Four weeks into Harvoni blood test results:
ALT 14  AST 20
Viral Load  =  UNDETECTED

Five months post Harvoni treatment and still virus free !

ONE YEAR post Harvoni treatment and still virus free !!!

Offline dragonslayer

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2015, 01:14:10 am »
I took milk thistle for a little over a year and my Fibrsure scan went from F1 to F3. My GI had me stop taking it, as it was not working. Also had me stop all supplements a month before starting Harvoni. Only take blood pressure and thyroid meds, a multivitamin and aspirin if needed.

What kind/brand were you taking?
Paul

DX 2008
Started Harvoni 11/26/14 for 8 wks
Completed 8 wks Harvoni 01/20/15
EOT RNA Quant result:  Detected 29
7.5 wk post tx: Detected < LLOQ(12)
11 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR12
24 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR24; AST 26; ALT 22; ALP 73
48 wk post tx: UNDETECTED SVR48; AST 18; ALT 18; ALP 70
GT 1a
vl 2.4mil
2008 bpx: Stage&Grade 0
2013 bpx: Stage&Grade: 0-1
IL28B: TT
likely infected early '70s

Offline S.Belle

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Re: Milk Thistle?
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2015, 05:21:42 am »
Gaia Herbs Milk Thistle Seed from Ada's Health Food Store. It's 450 mg of milk thistle seed extract. 100% vegan, dairy & gluten free.
Genotype 1
Infected in early 1990's Diagnosed in 2008
No previous treatment
Fibrosure score F3   Viral Load 94,000
ALT 117  AST 115
Started Harvoni on July 14, 2015



Two weeks into Harvoni blood test results:
ALT 13  AST 21
Viral Load  =  UNDETECTED  !!!


Four weeks into Harvoni blood test results:
ALT 14  AST 20
Viral Load  =  UNDETECTED

Five months post Harvoni treatment and still virus free !

ONE YEAR post Harvoni treatment and still virus free !!!

 


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