Hoping that all you lovely Americans are voting for Hillary!!

[andrew j]

... That's what everyone here in New Zealand is hoping for, anyway.
... And apparently in Europe, people are TERRIFIED by the prospect of a Trump presidency.

I'm sure Hillary will be better for our general health and well-being!

All the best for - Tuesday, is it?

Andrew J.

[Katie]

Many of us are terrified too and it has come to pass.  Not sure how that happened and it is an embarrassment.  I think the world just changed tonight but I will not let it change me, because I am good and many millions of us are.

[Luna7]

I am so sad today

[KimInTheForest]

Never felt more thankful to live in Canada than I have last night and this morning. Moved here 40 years ago from US. Have continued to vote in all US elections. The Canadian Immigration website crashed repeatedly last night as Trump headed toward victory. The Google search for "move to Canada" spiked significantly.

kim

[elias]

A truly sad day for Americans. And for the rest of the world as well

[andrew j]

Thank you, Elias.

Yes.

Obama has been such an inspiration.
A man of Peace.
A man of intelligence, sensitivity and courage.
... A Great Man.
They don't come up very often.

Hillary would have been the perfect thing to carry on his legacy.
... But this load of horse-manure?

Watching it on TV last night, I felt by turns nauseous, and overwhelmed.

Even Trump had the decency to look freaked-out.
Like - 'What? - This wasn't supposed to happen?!!' ...

Anyway -  the sun is still shining (at least for now?!) - and it's a beautiful day.

Thank you dears for replying.

A.

[KimInTheForest]

Sometimes I must turn to poetry to process the inconceivable. I have been sharing my "morning-after" emotions as haiku on facebook today:

snug in my
adopted land—a shadow
falls to the south
*

my homeland trapped
in a coma, the body
politic withers
*

the shattering
of the mosaic, the loss
of meaning
*

(in memory of orange)

long night, some colours
lose their innocence, do the
walk of shame
*

solar eclipse
coronal filaments
light my way
*

[Luna7]

Very beautiful poem Kim...it evoked a sense of pain and beauty at the same time for me...lovely..

[andrew j]

Yes.

Thank you Kim.

[Lynn K]

All I can say is about half of us did :/

It's going to be a long 4 years....

But this to shall pass

[gnatcatcher]

4 years is the tip of the iceberg. Supreme Court justices tend to serve a lot longer than that, and one of the Democratic appointees had already joked that if Trump won, it would be time to move to (Andrew, are you ready?) NEW ZEALAND!

Within our own Heplandia there may be about as many people relieved by the election result as there are people shocked and/or terrified by it. Please, can't we, who have felt estranged from our own bodies because of an insidious retrovirus, do our best to try to understand the political fissure, so that healing can occur within our body politic?

The New York Times handily provides "6 Books to Help Understand Trump's Win": http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/books/6-books-to-help-understand-trumps-win.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fbooks&action=click&contentCollection=books&region=rank&module=package&version=highlights&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=sectionfront&_r=0  I've found particularly helpful the concise explanation on pages 135-140 of Arlie Russell Hockschild's Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right.

Gnatty

[Mugwump]

To put the result in perspective; http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/unh
The stock did not skyrocket but did move up where the rest of the markets did not. So the futures for health insurance companies just went up.

I just wonder how this will all play out. Trump is promising a return to charity care and selective health care which favo(u)rs the rich. I truly hope that the nonsensical rhetoric of this mountebank comes back to bite him in the arse as more and more middle class Americans are bankrupted by the health care insurance for profit model.

At least we can still help inform more of our fellow heppers who will almost certainly be stonewalled by insurance companies, about how to get treatment elsewhere. Unless the backlash against Indian generics from the so called "intellectual property" rights holders forces Trump Inc. to do something completely stupid and close this avenue of escape.

All too depressing, but look on the bright side of the equation now the clown will have to put up or shut up and if he follows through on his promises to build a wall I am almost certain that he will become the first sitting pres to be impeached.

Cheers, I think?

[andrew j]

The 'Machine' should, to some extent, run itself (as a way of keeping Trump in check) - one can only hope!
... Trouble is - it'll be a Republican machine?!!

I like that NY times piece Gnatty.
It's beautifully written, isn't it?
... Articulate and insightful - it somehow manages to express complex ideas simply.
Always a good thing.

As for U.S foreign policy 'going forward' - I can't bear to think about it!!

... Which conveniently leads into:

NZ?
It's good for remoteness - for like small holdings in Nature. That sort of thing.
City and town life - it's probably not as interesting or exciting as in the U.S.
...

Mugwump,

Hopefully improvements in access to treatment will continue to such an extent that they outrun any changes the new administration might try to put in place.
Big Pharma wants to sell product, and they won't take kindly to anyone trying to stop them!
(Generics?
Who knows, eh?).

[Luna7]

Andrew, I'm dreaming of moving to New Zealand too, and might move out of the country if I didn't have such family responsibilities atm.

Had a pen-pal in NZ as a child that I remember fondly.
Tangata whenua!

Gnatty, where are the books where conservative bigots discuss and empathize with liberals?  I can't seem to locate any..lol.

I fear for my grandson, who is part Native American.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/dear-white-people-stop-saying-everything-will-be-ok/

[gnatcatcher]

. . . Gnatty, where are the books where conservative bigots discuss and empathize with liberals?  I can't seem to locate any..lol.

I fear for my grandson, who is part Native American.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/dear-white-people-stop-saying-everything-will-be-ok/

Bigots of any label don't score high on the empathy scale. But is that a reason people currently capable of empathy should close their minds and hearts? If nobody tries to understand "the other side," enmity deepens.

Luna, it concerns me greatly that your grandson is at risk. The more divided our country becomes, the more your grandson is at risk. It also concerns me greatly that grandsons of other minorities are at risk, and it concerns me that grandsons of non-minorities are among those who have been dying of drug overdoses. It doesn't help that the president-elect spewed bigotry and misogyny, but given the present situation, what's the harm in trying to understand people who see the world differently?

Luna, thanks for the link to a very well-expressed article. I hope you understood that my writing "4 years is the tip of the iceberg" means that I don't think everything will be okay. Another 2016 book, Alan Taylor's American Revolutions, gives ample evidence that certain evils can be traced all the way back to our founders. The "father of our country" ordered his troops to kill Native American women and children pre-emptively. Native Americans and many other members of "E Pluribus Unum" still aren't safe. Besides endeavoring to increase empathy in order to decrease enmity, what else do you suggest?

Gnatty

[Luna7]

Bigots of any label don't score high on the empathy scale. But is that a reason people currently capable of empathy should close their minds and hearts? If nobody tries to understand "the other side," enmity deepens.

Luna, it concerns me greatly that your grandson is at risk. The more divided our country becomes, the more your grandson is at risk. It also concerns me greatly that grandsons of other minorities are at risk, and it concerns me that grandsons of non-minorities are among those who have been dying of drug overdoses. It doesn't help that the president-elect spewed bigotry and misogyny, but given the present situation, what's the harm in trying to understand people who see the world differently?

Luna, thanks for the link to a very well-expressed article. I hope you understood that my writing "4 years is the tip of the iceberg" means that I don't think everything will be okay. Another 2016 book, Alan Taylor's American Revolutions, gives ample evidence that certain evils can be traced all the way back to our founders. The "father of our country" ordered his troops to kill Native American women and children pre-emptively. Native Americans and many other members of "E Pluribus Unum" still aren't safe. Besides endeavoring to increase empathy in order to decrease enmity, what else do you suggest?

Gnatty

You are right regarding how to cope with what has happened emotionally...it's just the timing is off for me personally. I need more time before my Kumbaya mode kicks in on this issue -- maybe it will reboot in a couple days after the image of the orange buffoon plastered on every media outlet fades from my mind a bit.
Funny, the other day I was feeling hopeful and even coming up with 'underground railroad' metaphors -- you know, getting even more real about fighting the good fight. Maybe I was just still in shock at the time and trying to imagine a better reality as some sort of coping mechanism, but now reality has now set in

But regarding what society as a whole should do and whether the solution is to increase empathy in order to decrease enmity, I don't know. I can't see how that changes them because they are so set in their ways. One thing I do know that changes them is when the experience happens to them -- when a gay son is bludgeoned to death, or when a daughter marries a person of color and they now have a grandchild who is harmed because of the color of his skin, on and on.

[gnatcatcher]

Luna, thank you for your very thoughtful response. It's not that empathy is "the" solution, it's simply something that someone of my limitations is able to do. I've never been good at convincing anyone of a particular point of view because I could nearly always see at least one other side to it. But what you have noticed is something I have also noticed: sometimes people change only if their worldview is so upended by the kinds of examples you cite that love manages to overcome.

Gnatty

[gnatcatcher]

Andrew, this is your thread, so it's past time I responded to your post. Remoteness sounds like a highly desirable attribute right now, and every photograph I have seen of New Zealand has been, if not stunning, then at a minimum lovely. But, alas, flying away wouldn't solve anything.

I'll miss Barack Obama's eloquence and basic decency. But I'm now reading a fourth book on that New York Times list (Thomas Frank's Listen, Liberal) and see where Obama subscribed to an unexamined assumption that inadvertently paved the way for the mess we now find ourselves in.

Gnatty

[andrew j]

If someone who gives voice to racism, division, fear and contempt can be elected to the presidency, things are not well in The Empire.

I watch Al Jazeera TV. (I know it's available in the U.S.).
I watch it because I can't get BBC World.
... But it's better than BBC World anyway - more socially responsible.
They cover what's happening in the Middle-East, especially ... in Africa, in Eastern Europe, in the U.S. ...
... Documentaries, interviews, critical commentary etc.

Last night, they showed clips of high-school kids in the U.S. marching through their school cafeterias with banners chanting white supremacist slogans, while - Fillipino kids, I think it was - were crying in fear.

Groovy.

You (Americans) deserve better.

It looks, in part - like a problem of the 'haves and the have-nots'.

Maybe managing the huge population in the U.S. has become an issue by now,
also?

People are basically good, I think.
If they are not, it's because they are ignorant - or because they have been wounded or harmed in some other way.
It's almost as if 'religious' (in the broadest sense of the word), or 'spiritual' forces are needed.
A need for healing.

 ... But it looks as if some sort of catharsis or revolution might be necessary first?

... Good luck with that!

Most people care about each other.
I'm sure of that.

Peace and love,
Andrew.

P.S. Thanks for touching base Luna (and Gnatty, of course).

[gnatcatcher]

Andrew, hoping that all you lovely New Zealanders are okay. I just read you've had a magnitude-7.8 earthquake and small tsunami:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_NEW_ZEALAND_EARTHQUAKE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2016-11-13-10-02-20

Please let us know something when you can.

Fingers crossed,

Gnatty

[andrew j]

Hi Gnatty,

Thanks for your kind message. In fact, it was from you that I learnt about the 'quake!
It hit the northeast of the South Island last night. (It's a [beautiful] rural and coastal area).
There is extensive damage there, and in the capital, Wellington.
I live in Auckland, and I was still up when the quake hit (just after midnight, our time), but I didn't feel anything.
Some people did feel it here, apparently.

Two people are dead.
Not so good.

We have had a bit of trouble with quakes here over the last few years.
We are on the Pacific 'Ring of Fire' - a fault line that runs up the east coast of
S.E. Asia / China / Russia, and down the west coast of the U.S., I think.

Switched on the TV to check it out.

Trump is 'vowing' to deport 3 million people from the U.S. immediately.
You know - I was watching TV last night (it's all I ever do!), and I was noticing how commentators around the world are, or were, naively trying to convince themselves, and the audience, that maybe things wouldn't change too much for a while.

Sheesh!

Bombing is about to resume in Eastern Aleppo.

Turn the bloody thing off!!

It is a lovely day here in Paradise thank you - yes.
The sun is shining, a warm-cloudy wind is blowing, and birds are chirping from their little perches.
... Really!

Best wishes,
Andrew.

[gnatcatcher]

Thank you, Andrew. While I am sorry 2 people lost their lives, it is a relief to know that you, fellow citizen of Heplandia, are okay.

Trump can't deport people immediately. He doesn't become president until January 20. However, his words have already caused a lot of damage. Schools are making counselors available for students experiencing fear and/or grief.

Shalom is a word we very much need now. The Hebrew Bible uses "Shalom Shalom" to mean "perfect peace." Salaam is Arabic for peace, so "Salaam Shalom" is something to which the world (and the not-so-United States) can aspire.

Today I drove past a church that had the following display on its lawn: In the center, in front of the steps that lead to the church sanctuary, was a large opening above which a banner proclaimed "Welcome." To the left and right of "Welcome" were banners declaring "Wall of Kindness." Hanging from those banners were streamers of many colors reaching all the way down to the grass -- a permeable wall permeated by "the better angels of our nature.” (Abraham Lincoln)

[andrew j]

Lovely, Gnatty.
Thank you.

[Luna7]

Thank you, Andrew. While I am sorry 2 people lost their lives, it is a relief to know that you, fellow citizen of Heplandia, are okay.

Trump can't deport people immediately. He doesn't become president until January 20. However, his words have already caused a lot of damage. Schools are making counselors available for students experiencing fear and/or grief.

Shalom is a word we very much need now. The Hebrew Bible uses "Shalom Shalom" to mean "perfect peace." Salaam is Arabic for peace, so "Salaam Shalom" is something to which the world (and the not-so-United States) can aspire.

Today I drove past a church that had the following display on its lawn: In the center, in front of the steps that lead to the church sanctuary, was a large opening above which a banner proclaimed "Welcome." To the left and right of "Welcome" were banners declaring "Wall of Kindness." Hanging from those banners were streamers of many colors reaching all the way down to the grass -- a permeable wall permeated by "the better angels of our nature.” (Abraham Lincoln)

Thanks for that story
I do think this crisis is only evoking more love as time passes...pretty amazing

[andrew j]

Gnatty,

Oh. OK. I've modified.

Shalom Shalom!

[gnatcatcher]

A few other tidbits:

Some protesters in Manhattan carried signs that read "Hate won't make us great."

A speaker I heard yesterday pointed out all the ways candidate Trump's rhetoric referenced death and commented that a controlled study showed that verbally stirring up people's fear of their own death causes them to exhibit more bigotry. If Trump continues to moderate his rhetoric, there should be a reduction in bigotry (although he will be inclined to ramp up such rhetoric whenever it might serve his purposes, such as when running for reelection).

Can you see the supermoon where you are? It's outside my window as I type. Usually I miss the special astronomical events because of cloud cover.
"Miru tokoro hana ni arazu to iu koto nashi,
omou tokoro tsuki ni arazu to iu koto nashi
There is nothing you can see that is not a flower;
There is nothing you can think that is not the moon."
      -Basho (tr. R. H. Blyth)

[elias]

It's  indeed inspiring that so many protesters are showing solidarity with the disenfranchised.

Unfortunately however, they do not seem  very vocal concerning his promise to repeal the Affordable Care Act ("Obamacare") Ironically, this is "low lying fruit" for him compared to some of the other issues . He has support of Republican majority on this. This might mean  that ~20 million American now covered by medical insurance will no longer be


(PS: I'm not getting email notification for  new posts on this n other thread I'm subscribed to since Nov 11.  Sorry for posting this here. No idea how to fix that, or who to contact)

[gnatcatcher]

Trump isn't throwing out the entire baby with the bathwater. He's reiterated what he said back in February and May -- he wants to keep two provisions: insurers can't exclude preexisting conditions and young adults can remain on their parents' policies up to age 26. See for example:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlaszewski2/2016/11/12/it-isnt-news-that-trump-wants-to-keep-the-pre-existing-condition-reforms-he-said-so-in-february/#4e75b9af7ccf

Republicans know a lot of voters have come to appreciate the ACA, so they have a delicate job figuring out how not to alienate too many people. All the representatives know they have to run again very soon for an election that is only two years away.

As for email notification, did you ever receive an email for a thread and select the option to unsubscribe from that thread? If so, I don't know how you can reverse that choice. If not, it sounds like a software bug. One moderator posted to this thread, so maybe she's still following it and will have an idea.

Gnatty

[elias]

Hiya Gnatty:

I heard about those two provisions of ACA he says he'd like to keep.

Nevertheless, many if not most of the  millions of newly insured under ACA are covered via Medicaid for the poor which is combination of federal and state.  By block granting the Medicaid program to the states, as threatened, much of the funding will be lost Likely first victims of this will be newly insured at close to poverty levels.

I fear we are entering a dark period of a war against the poor..

========

PS: I logged out n back into my forum account, and seems it fixed the notification glitch. I generally stay logged in  24/7 because I cant keep track of passwords. Brain fog, i guess

[gnatcatcher]

. . . we are entering a dark period of a war against the poor. . . .

Alas, probably so. Elias, thank you for the detailed information.

PS: I logged out n back into my forum account, and seems it fixed the notification glitch. I generally stay logged in  24/7 because I cant keep track of passwords. Brain fog, i guess

Glad that took care of it. Is there anyone who can remember all of their dozens of passwords? Maybe Mugwump (Eric) -- he has quite an ingenious system for creating them.

[Luna7]

Hi Elias

Medicaid is basically for those who don't work at all, whereas the ACA is for those who are self-employed and/are work part time and aren't covered by their employer's health plan.

I've read recently Trump plans to drastically reduce Medicaid spending in a couple of years, so yes the poor are really going to take a hit.

It's unclear what's going to happen to those who are self-employed and/or working part-time and insured under the ACA.
I'm concerned personally because I'm a freelancer and the ACA allowed me to have good insurance for awhile without paying an astronomical amount each month. It's unclear how this aspect is going to pan out in 2017.

Luna

[elias]

Hi Luna

I believe Medicaid has been expanded under ACA. The upper income limit had been raised to 133% of poverty level. This might vary from state to state (possibly) It covers many of the working poor with low income.

Child Health Plus, which allows even higher incomes, but still at working poor level, is a further expansion of Medicaid. Scrapping the CHP will leave millions of children without coverage.

I fear he has those programs in mind when he speaks of "repeal-replace"

Hard to say how his repeal-replace scheme will play itself out for those who are self-employed. In spite all its cumbersome aspects, the ACA has made health care affordable for many who weren't otherwise. Was definitely move in right direction.  Universal Health Care is my own preference though

[andrew j]

Gee - that's an inspiring approach for a leader to take, isn't it?

Gnatty:
Re: the Super-moon.

Forecasters here said that it might be cloudy on the night of the full-moon (last night) - and suggested watching it either the night before, or the night after the full-moon.
I had a look the night before, and it was cloudy then, too - but a small gap opened up. And there it was - very large and very bright!
Last night the sky was overcast, with a haze of moisture through it.
The moon was again large (of course), but this time it was the most strange and ethereal grey colour!

[Mugwump]

Alas, probably so. Elias, thank you for the detailed information.

Glad that took care of it. Is there anyone who can remember all of their dozens of passwords? Maybe Mugwump (Eric) -- he has quite an ingenious system for creating them.

Use pass phrases instead. One of my favourite is one that only real geeks laugh at wtfisit2u. The trick to make it more secure is to break it up with characters like _

As far as memory goes that is the problem so using something which can be translated into a complete phrase for instance WHAT THE (bleeped) *&^%  IS IT TO YOU  works well for the memory.

Cheers and don't worry about Trump too much his mouth will bring him down he is already finding it difficult to keep from licking the toe jam and dismantling what so many Americans worked so hard to bring about is a start. Next bit of bull crap that will bite him in the arse is the ridiculous nonsense about building a wall with Mexico. Being a neighbour from the north I can tell you some here would like to build one on the 49th and get him to pay for it! In fact building a wall all the way across Canada might be a real employment opportunity, rather like a crazy "New Deal" for the unemployed.

Most sensible humans up here, except perhaps some dependent completely upon the oil industry in Oilberta, think that he is a temporary joke and a very bad one at that! Then again we have our share of red necks and people who watch fox news thinking they are well informed so, yes unfortunately some here have fallen for the crap this mountebank peddles.

The mugwump

[elias]

Hey. thanks for cheering me up some, mugwump

He's probably too nutty and ignorant to do all that much on his own without slipping up badly. I doubt he's even read the ACA law.

The problem is morel likely  the majority his party holds in congress which will have blanket power , since he wont veto. There have been  a few attempts to gut the Affordable Care Act before. But Obama vetoed those. The most recent was under the rubric of something called a "Reconciliation Bill" which is not subject to  filibuster. I don't know exactly which parts of ACA that most recent attempt tried to gut. But perhaps that might give some clue as to wha'ts in store

[andrew j]

Yes - I am in a sort-of grieving process too, I think (Elias).

Mustn't get despondent.

Thank you guys for your ... stoicism!
For remaining so up-beat!

From a small place like this (and around the world) people have felt secure with Obama in charge.
At every turn, he has sought to curb violence, and lift up the oppressed.
The restraint he's shown in Syria has been something amazing to behold.

The ACA?
Here, and in Australia and the U.K., we have public health systems.
Healthcare is provided free of charge.
You can get health insurance if you want it.
It means you can get operations sooner, in private hospitals.

Basic healthcare is a human right, surely?

What's hard to understand about that?

[gnatcatcher]

Mugwump, I was referring to your melodic passwords that resemble musical kana.

Andrew, even your grey, gauzy-veiled moon seems preferable to P. B. Shelley's ". . . like a dying lady . . . ."

Elias, probably very few people have read the ACA due to its length:
http://computationallegalstudies.com/2009/11/08/facts-about-the-length-of-h-r-3962/
There's still the question of whether Trump has read the U.S. Constitution.

As Luna notes, a lot more people are vulnerable now. But for the time being, all we are doing is speculating. Educated guesses, yes, but still guesses.

My attempt to channel Kim:

We squint
into inkiness
the moon sinks

[Luna7]

OMG Gnatcatcher....you have turned this into a channeling forum!

Wait, Madam Blafansnab is going to speak!.........

Hmmm...sorry...silent today...maybe tomorrow

[Luna7]

Hi Luna

I believe Medicaid has been expanded under ACA. The upper income limit had been raised to 133% of poverty level. This might vary from state to state (possibly) It covers many of the working poor with low income.

Child Health Plus, which allows even higher incomes, but still at working poor level, is a further expansion of Medicaid. Scrapping the CHP will leave millions of children without coverage.

I fear he has those programs in mind when he speaks of "repeal-replace"

Hard to say how his repeal-replace scheme will play itself out for those who are self-employed. In spite all its cumbersome aspects, the ACA has made health care affordable for many who weren't otherwise. Was definitely move in right direction.  Universal Health Care is my own preference though

I can't believe this setback!
Universal healthcare was in sight

[Luna7]

Help has arrived

http://www.disclose.tv/news/are_you_suffering_from_trump_acceptance_resistance_disorder_tard/136500?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fb_organic

[gnatcatcher]

Luna, you're providing me with quite the education. After reading the link, I did a search on blafansnab:
Google asked if I meant bluefin saab.
Bing, DuckDuckGo, and Yahoo suggested lufthansa.
What conclusions to draw I leave as an exercise for the reader

Gnatty

[Luna7]

Luna, you're providing me with quite the education. After reading the link, I did a search on blafansnab:
Google asked if I meant bluefin saab.
Bing, DuckDuckGo, and Yahoo suggested lufthansa.
What conclusions to draw I leave as an exercise for the reader

Gnatty

lol too much Gnatty..

I've done the same..googled that word...quite amazing where words can lead...giving me some entertainment here as I wake up with my coffee.

I think you need to Google my head though to find out this info, and I'm not sure you want to go there!

[gnatcatcher]

Well, if I'm ever going to Google anyone's head, now's the perfect time.
Everything has begun to seem surreal to me.

[KimInTheForest]

We squint
into inkiness
the moon sinks

Good one Gnatty!

kim

[elias]

Yes Lunar.

Most if not all civilized nations have universal health care. Its seen as a basic inalienable right. We are unfortunately the exception. The ACA was move in right direction.

As we are finding here, the Affordable Care Act is a complex hodgepodge of many different arrangements. Possibly with much variance from state to state.  Possibly the Mediciad expansions now in effect do vary state-wide? This complexity makes it easier to dismantle it piecemeal, given the right climate. This can be fought on several levels. Though the sheer complexity of it all makes it hard to codify such resistance in terms of a simple demand or battle cry.

This article seems to summarize the present state of affairs with all this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obamacare-medicaid-medicare-gop-chopping-block_us_582a19b8e4b060adb56fbae7?jn7jtocg8bzqia4i